Given all the praise heaped on the BMW 3 Series over the years, we can't blame you for thinking there's more to the story. We've heard all the conspiracy theories, most of them involving checks in large denominations from Munich.
This might seem believable to a certain segment of the population, but there's a far less interesting truth behind all those wins: The BMW was the best car. Sure, certain rivals often upped their game in one area or another, but the 3 Series always put it all together in a way that made it better.
So now the 2010 Audi S4 is here to take another shot. It's all-new this year and the old V8 is gone. There's now a supercharged V6 in its place, along with a lower price designed to better align the S4 with the BMW 335i.
The BMW 3 Series received a face-lift of its own last year. It was mostly minor trim changes and the like, but we're told that iDrive thing was tweaked again, too (oh, lovely).
Sounds like a fair fight, no?
Hope You Got a Bonus This Year
Probably best to get the cost issue out of the way up front. These are not the entry-level sport sedans their names might suggest. The BMW 3 Series may start just below $34,000 on the low end, but once you add the 300-horsepower twin-turbo 3.0-liter engine — and you do want to do that — the base price jumps to $40K.
That doesn't include much in the way of features, either, so our 2009 BMW 335i test car includes extras like a Sport package and a Premium package and a Cold Weather package and various other options. Final sticker price: $49,320.
And if that number sounds steep, then consider that the 2010 Audi S4 is just getting started at nearly $46,000. Of course, Audi likes to point out that the S4's base price includes a long list of standard features, and it does, but our test car also had a Toyota Yaris worth ($12,425) of additional features, which pushes the grand total to over $59K.
All this makes for a considerable price difference between the two cars, but on paper they actually match up quite well. Both use 3.0-liter engines with forced induction and both get standard six-speed manual gearboxes. The Audi also adds all-wheel drive, of course. There's an all-wheel-drive version of the 335i, too, but you can't combine it with a sport suspension, so the standard rear-wheel-drive version is a better choice for performance.
And Now for Some More Interesting Numbers
At those prices these sedans better do something special, and they don't disappoint. Say, for instance, you like to go very fast in a straight line. These sedans do that quite well. We know; we tested them.
The BMW is the slower of the two, yet it still turns in a 0-60-mph time of 5.3 seconds (4.9 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and runs through the quarter-mile in 13.5 seconds at 103.8 mph. That's what 300 hp and 300 pound-feet of torque in a 3,607-pound sedan will do for you.
The Audi is saddled with an extra 377 pounds, so it helps that its new supercharged V6 produces a healthy 333 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque. This is enough to deliver a 0-60-mph time of 4.9 seconds (4.6 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and a 13.2-second quarter-mile at 106.1 mph.
How impressive are these numbers? Consider that the quickest of the new American muscle coupes, the 426-hp Chevrolet Camaro SS, turns about the same numbers down the drag strip as the Audi.
Fast in a Nice Way
You don't spend $50K on a European sport sedan to embarrass Chevys at stoplights, though. OK, maybe you secretly dream about doing just that, but for the other 99 percent of the time you want an ultra-refined, indestructible engine that makes all the right sounds.
We've noted in the past that BMW's twin-turbo inline-6 is just such an engine. Surprisingly strong at low rpm and dead solid all the way to its redline of 7,000 rpm, BMW's force-fed straight-6 has no real faults. Or at least, it feels that way until you drive the S4.
The Audi V6 is also staggeringly refined and full of torque, yet it delivers its burst of power even quicker than the BMW. It jumps off idle thanks to its fast-acting supercharger and doesn't fall flat once all the boost is dialed in. Instead, it charges all the way to its own redline of 7,000 rpm on a big flat mountain of torque. There's no buzzing or coarseness along the way, either. It feels like the BMW engine, only with an aftermarket chip already installed.
Couple the nearly flawless engine with the S4's nicely weighted clutch and finger-light shift action and the Audi couldn't feel more perfect running through the gears. OK, a deeper and less raspy exhaust note would be nice, but we're nitpicking.
Getting a Handle on All That Power
Since any old Camaro can go fast in a straight line, we tested both sedans through the slalom and around the skid pad, too.
The results are a bit closer, as both cars register 0.92g around our big circle. They do so in different ways, however. The S4 goes faster with the stability control left on, while the 3 Series makes its best run with it off. Seems as though the S4's computer is able to do a better job of moving the torque around than our test-driver. (He didn't take it too hard, though.)
The S4's big advantage here is its torque-proportioning rear differential. It's able to send power to the outside wheel to help get the car turned and eliminate understeer. It works well through the slalom cones, too, as the S4 is slightly faster with a 68.8-mph run compared to the BMW's 68.4-mph sprint.
Our test-driver eventually managed to finesse both cars through the cones with no help from electronic aids. He found the Audi surprisingly willing to bring its back end around thanks to the sport differential, yet it is easily controllable. The BMW has no such help, but is more predictable and stable and only fractionally slower.
Confidence Builders
On the street, it's a slightly different story. Both cars have high limits thanks to the sticky rubber included in their respective sport packages: Bridgestone RE050As on the BMW and Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GTs for the Audi.
You can then throw it around as hard and fast as you want, yet it never gets out of shape.
Getting the most out of such tires takes a more skilled hand in the BMW. It's still a lenient partner for the most part, with precise steering and predictable handling. But as you get closer to the limit it feels more on edge than the sure-footed Audi.
The S4's all-wheel-drive system is the difference here. You simply feel more confident when you know that an ill-advised stab of the throttle won't send the rear end sideways. The sport differential makes such a sideways cornering attitude possible if you have the skills, but to the average driver it simply feels like the car is tracking better and more planted.
Audi's Drive Select adjustable dampers help here, and Dynamic mode dials out what little softness is left. You can then throw it around as hard and fast as you want, yet it never gets out of shape. The BMW isn't too far behind, but push it too hard and even the sport suspension starts to feel just a little soft.
They Go Slow Well, Too
Keep in mind that so far we've been talking about only the most aggressive driving here. Go easy and these cars are still immensely rewarding to drive. Even with their big wheels and tires and sport suspensions, both cars ride comfortably and cruise quietly.
We still prefer the more natural feel of the BMW's steering to the S4's responsive but slightly over-boosted setup. Both have incredibly powerful brakes. The Audi stops from 60 mph in just 109 feet, while the BMW only requires two additional feet. Pedal feel is light and precise on both cars.
Gadgets Galore
For your sizable chunk of cash, you would probably expect a healthy dose of luxury with your sport sedan. Both these sedans deliver, but the Audi's extra cost gives it an advantage. Included in its pricey Prestige package are extras like a Bang & Olufsen audio system, keyless ignition, voice-activated audio and telephone controls and a navigation system with video game-style graphics.
All this comes in addition to the S4's standard features like sport seats, a sunroof, xenon headlights, heated power seats, Bluetooth connectivity and an iPod hookup. In other words, at $60K there's nothing left to add to this car.
It all sounds overwhelming, but once you're behind the wheel the S4's layout doesn't look complicated. All the electronic gadgets are easily accessed through the MMI controller and none of the protocols take much time to figure out. Like the fancy suspension, though, you probably wouldn't miss much if you left most of it out.
The BMW didn't have a navigation system or a high-end audio system and it still looked expensive inside — solid construction, quality materials and a simple layout. Both sedans have that typical German austerity that's traditional but hardly warm. Neither car has much of an advantage over the other in terms of front seat comfort, but the Audi's more spacious backseat makes it reasonably comfortable for four adults.
S4 for the Win
So the 2010 Audi S4 finished well ahead of the 2009 BMW 335i this time around. Have our biases changed? Did we want to shake things up? Are we partial to canary yellow cars? Not a chance.
Like every comparison test before it, this one comes down to which car puts it all together in the most compelling package. We drove the cars in every imaginable situation, and every time someone got out of the Audi he was struggling to find a flaw. It was much the same way with the 335i, but driven back to back, the Audi feels a step ahead.
Slightly faster, easier to push hard and more comfortable on the inside, the 2010 Audi S4 is as good as it gets when it comes to sport sedans in this price range. It's a lofty range, but if you're going to spend that kind of money, you might as well get what you pay for.
The manufacturers provided Edmunds these vehicles for the purposes of evaluation.
Add A Comment »
mrcardio says:
09:27 AM, 08/28/2010
*Correction
@ 24hrz16
mrcardio says:
09:26 AM, 08/28/2010
@2smov
To answer that ridiculous question, people buy 300+hp sports cars because they don't want to being stuck in a boring ass car like a Honda Accord. Cars such as the Audi S4 and BMW 335i make driving on a daily basis much more enjoyable and having a lot of horse power just makes it more fun. A base 230hp BMW 328i while not horrible isn't as fun as the under-rated 300hp/300ft-lb Torque BMW 335i. Some goes from the base Audi 4 vs. the Audi S4, the Audi S4 is loads more fun to drive than a basic A4 with just 211hp. If you don't enjoy driving go ahead a buy you a Honda Accord or Lexus IS250/IS350 great basic transportation just boring as hell.
24hrz16 says:
10:09 AM, 06/12/2010
I guess when you want everything in one car (performance, room, comfort, and luxury) IMO there aren't many better choices out there. These cars have almost the same performance as a GT500 mustang or a base Corvette, but they are quiet, roomy, and comfortable. Both, the 335i and S4 are great for people who can only have one car. However, I live in America, and not some cramped European city with tiny streets and ridiculous gas prices. Who really needs to drive a 300hp car on their commute to work or to the grocery store? Get yourself something like an accord, or even a base audi/bmw if you so wish, and save ur sports car driving for the weekend. You'll end up paying a lot less overall for maintenance and probably collect fewer tickets as well.
kev2138 says:
11:17 PM, 05/17/2010
A LOT of people commenting are COMPLETELY missing the point regarding the PRICE of the S4 and 335i!!!
The point is a comparably equipped 335i (how many ppl by stripped BMW's?) is comparable in price to the Audi S4 which begins life with options the vast MAJOR of BMW buyers opt for!!!
How hard is this to understand? Or are you just playing dumb because you're a BMW fan boi who's disappointed his car lost in a Mag comparo?
Yes, the S4 is still cost a bit more but you get what you pay for!
The Audi S4 should compete with a stripped M3 which starts at 55k??? WTF...
The 2010 Audi S4 beats your little 335i; deal with it and move on.
oldcar8000 says:
09:53 AM, 02/23/2010
Why is it that Audi is the only company who doesn't publish rear seat leg room? The S4 has a 2 inch longer wheelbase than the 335 and the same overall length so it seems like it ought to have better interior room. So why wouldn't Audi publish that?
carnuts3 says:
02:10 PM, 02/21/2010
Frankly, I was surprised that these two vehicles match up this closely considering that the BMW is the much older (almost last generation) platform.... For now, the newly introduced S4 climbs to the top until the next generation 3 series is introduced sometime within the next year or two. That's just how it goes in the auto world - on top one year and kicked off your perch the next. Great for the auto enthusiasts.
tallers23 says:
08:28 AM, 11/15/2009
You can't compare the stats nor price of the S4 and the M3. Optioned similarly they are worlds apart. Also, one is a V8 the other a V6. Don't even ask about MPG.
I owned a 330i, then an '02 M3, and currently own a '04 545i. I'm in the market for a new daily commuter and test drove the S4 yesterday. It does need an AWE Tuning exhaust but otherwise is a real nice machine. I was worried about the back seat room compared to my 5 but with the driver (6') seat set, there was room for my knees in the back. Handling was tight and plenty of pep.
You really can't compare this car with the 335 since it lacks awd. Pricewise, all options included, compare it with the 335IX. There will be a difference.
I'm a german car guy and it may be time to try an Audi. If you're looking to compare the M3, wait for the RS4. Audi didn't build the S4 to compete with the M3.
frommx5tomz3 says:
03:05 PM, 11/11/2009
After all this commentary about the price differential, I decided to get to the most important price differential - the one based on the options I actually would pay for. Here is my list of "must haves" (yours will likely be different):
Manual tranny
Sport suspension
Sport seats with leather
Upgraded stereo with ipod interface and sat radio
Heated seats
Fold down rear seats
Metallic paint
Wood trim
Bluetooth
Notice I wouldn't pay extra for AWD and I would not order Nav, keyless entry, or advanced cruise control (heck I don't use basic cruise). Including destination, according to Edmunds, configured like this, these two cars are almost identical in price.
335i = $49,100
S4 = $49,075
I suppose if you require Audi Drive Select or keyless entry, this equation might change a lot. Similarly, if you must have AWD, things might swing the other way. But I am guessing that for MOST people, these cars are pretty similar in price once they are optioned out to their liking and no more. I bet that 95% of all "apples to apples" option configurations put these cars within $2-3K of each other. I'm not sure which is best, but I can say with certainty that sticker price would not be the deciding factor for me.
kl_beast says:
01:22 PM, 11/11/2009
Oh, BTW, the best form of flattery is imitation. Thanks Audi!
I forgot, the best form of flattery is jealously. Thanks Audi fans!
kl_beast says:
01:12 PM, 11/11/2009
So many BMW haters on this blog. There's a reason the 3-series is the "benchmark" for Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. S4 should be compared to the M3, not the 335i. Period, end of story.
truecarfan says:
10:27 AM, 10/25/2009
ba27 - you explained it well enough so I'll just piggyback on what you said...
magbarn - Who buys a stripped down M3?? If you want to look at it from the reverse of what ba27 pointed out to you - ask yourself how much an M3 would cost if it had the same features of the S4??? You'll be paying MUCH more.
Case in point - I have a good friend who about the A4 2.0 Prestige and it is MUCH more luxurious than the 335i. That friend spent time in a 6-series and feels their new A4 is more luxurious in terms of materials. They pointed out that the MMI is vastly superior to the I-Drive. You can watch DVD's in the Audi and sample how good a movie sounds through the Bang & Olufsen audio system!! Also, their 3-D navigation makes all other systems look like an old Atari.
This test was strictly on performance by numbers and real-world. The Audi won. If you want to include luxury and day to day useability (the Audi is roomier, bigger trunk, better safety rating etc.) - the gap would undoubtedly be bigger - with less of a price difference.
ba27 says:
03:59 PM, 10/22/2009
Magbarn: There was no kow-towing. ALL the S4s in the press fleet were loaded with every available option. They're new - it's no surprise that the first cars across the water were loaded. The 335i was relatively lightly-optioned, making the "as-tested" prices wildly different, and not representative of comparably-equipped cars. C&D understands this, as does Edmunds.
An excerpt from C&D's comparison test:
"... the $41,125 BMW 335i with its 300-hp, twin-turbo inline-six is the S4's new, lower-priced doppelgänger. But watch the little print. The BMW doesn't match the S4's standard equipment until you add the Premium pack ($2650), the Sport pack ($2150), the Cold Weather pack ($1150), and $995 in iPod interfaces and satellite radio.......Forget the Audi's as-tested price of $59,425 and the BMW's $49,320 tab. This story is about how a $50,675 Audi S4 (the base price plus the performance-vital Audi drive select.... ) ...meets a $48,470 BMW 335i (base price plus all the requisite options to match the S4's standard equipment) on virtually equal treads."
Comparably-equipped, the 335i and S4 are only ~$2.2K apart in price.
The S4 would be more like $10K cheaper than a comparably-equipped M3, BTW.
magbarn says:
03:29 PM, 10/22/2009
truecarfan says:
07:56 AM, 10/22/2009
magbarn - I find it very ironic that BMW fans would argue over price. When the Japanese automakers started making competent performance and luxury cars the argument was "well the BMW costs more because it's more 'special' - so you have to pay more if you want the best". I always defended BMW fans because I agreed with that thinking. Now when it's BMW on the short end to a more expensive Audi (as has happened before) - the argument becomes "oh but the BMW is the better value". Well that is arguable anyway - but it is VERY hypocritical without question.
Using your argument then - it's better that everybody drive an Infiniti G37 - since that's the best value in the class. If you are on a budget then yes....but if you want the best - then you have to pay for it!!
Then why not pay the little extra (less than 10% in this price range) and take the superior M3 over the S4. Get a sweet 400+ HP NA V8 (albeit gas thirsty) FREE MAINTENANCE (a big deal with these expensive cars) for not much more coin. My main beef is the mags all kow-towed to Audi and compared the S4 vs. the cheaper 335i when they could've compared against a M3. Why don't we compare an A4 next time vs. the 335i which costs $10K more next time?
ba27 says:
08:22 AM, 10/22/2009
The only hate on here is coming from BMW fanbois who can't accept that the 335i lost this comparison.
The 335i is a fantastic car; it's just not AS fantastic as the (similarly priced when similarly equipped) new S4.
truecarfan says:
07:56 AM, 10/22/2009
magbarn - I find it very ironic that BMW fans would argue over price. When the Japanese automakers started making competent performance and luxury cars the argument was "well the BMW costs more because it's more 'special' - so you have to pay more if you want the best". I always defended BMW fans because I agreed with that thinking. Now when it's BMW on the short end to a more expensive Audi (as has happened before) - the argument becomes "oh but the BMW is the better value". Well that is arguable anyway - but it is VERY hypocritical without question.
Using your argument then - it's better that everybody drive an Infiniti G37 - since that's the best value in the class. If you are on a budget then yes....but if you want the best - then you have to pay for it!!
magbarn says:
12:45 AM, 10/22/2009
What's with all the hate on the 335i? These obviously Audi sponsored S4 vs. 335i comparos are lame. (Even edmunds admitted Audi DID NOT WANT THE M3 in their comparos!) The S4's priced out in these comparos are about the same as a lightly optioned M3. In other words a $59K S4 vs. $59K M3 sedan will have the M3 WINNING EVERY TIME. I don't care about the next RS4 which is going to be another $10K on top the M3.
lexuslvr says:
01:58 PM, 10/20/2009
louiswei please give it up. Everyone knows that the 335i is superb and you will never go wrong if you choose to buy it. The simple fact is that the S4 is more superb and you also will never go wrong if you choose to buy it. This loss will just help keep BMW's guard up and teach them not to sleep on other car companies so you can bet your ass that the new 3-series will make some kind of comeback.
truecarfan says:
09:21 AM, 10/19/2009
Some of the banter on here is truly infantile. The fact is that throughout the world-wide automotive press has consistently ranked the new S4 over the 335i(xi). It is noted to be very close in track performance but it separates itself from the BMW in real-world driving and everyday living. No one is telling BMW fans to like Audi's - but to fight against the truth is futile. It's the same argument as when the RS4 from the last generation toppled the M3.
As far as the pricing argument. The Audi has more standard equipment and more optional features as well. Anyone who sits in a BMW and then in an Audi (with no badges for argument sake) will know exactly why the similar Audi costs more (aside from BMW trying to pricing the 3-Series U.S. cars to push volume instead of profits).
It is the same argument as when the last generation RS4 came out and consistently beat the M3 in comparisons.
ba27 says:
08:52 PM, 10/18/2009
Facts:
S4 335i
0 - 30 (sec.) 1.9 2.1
0 - 45 (sec.) 3.3 3.6
0 - 60 (sec.) 4.9 5.3
0 - 75 (sec.) 7.2 7.8
1/4 mile 13.2 @ 106.1 13.5 @ 103.8
0-60 with 1-ft rollout 4.6 4.9
30 - 0 (ft.) 27 27
60 - 0 (ft.) 109 111
Fact: There's no way to spec a 335i to be faster from the factory, but you CAN spec an S4 to be less expensive from the factory, without losing any performance.
louiswei says:
09:42 AM, 10/18/2009
FACT:
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
Curb weight, as-tested (lbs.): 3,984 vs. 3,607
ba27 says:
04:40 AM, 10/18/2009
Final Rankings
Item Weight Audi S4 BMW 335i
Personal Rating 2.5% 100.0 50.0
Recommended Rating 2.5% 75.0 75.0
Evaluation Score 25% 78.6 78.0
Feature Content 20% 77.8 33.3
Performance 25% 100.0 92.2
Fuel Consumption 5% 100.0 95.2
Price 20% 80.1 100.0
Total Score 100.0% 85.6 77.1
Final Ranking 1 2
louiswei says:
09:29 AM, 10/17/2009
FACT:
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
Curb weight, as-tested (lbs.): 3,984 vs. 3,607
audisport says:
08:26 AM, 10/17/2009
I went over to Audi.com to price an S4 and I was able to keep the MSRP under $54k. Manual trans, premium plus instead of prestige, no nav, 19 inch summer perf tires, and rear diff. Much closer in price and still better equipped than Bimmer.
ba27 says:
05:14 AM, 10/17/2009
Me too.
"Like every comparison test before it, this one comes down to which car puts it all together in the most compelling package. We drove the cars in every imaginable situation, and every time someone got out of the Audi he was struggling to find a flaw. It was much the same way with the 335i, but driven back to back, the Audi feels a step ahead."
louiswei says:
01:08 PM, 10/16/2009
FACT:
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
Curb weight, as-tested (lbs.): 3,984 vs. 3,607
I can go on this forever you know...
ba27 says:
01:05 PM, 10/16/2009
Facts:
S4 won this comparison.
S4 has won every other comparison with the 335i yet published save one. This is in spite of any pricing discrepancy that might have existed between the tested examples.
335i, while a very nice car, lost this comparison, as well as every other comparison with the 2010 S4 save one, where it tied, but was declared the winner due the tested model's lower price.
S4: 5 wins, 1 loss.
335i: 1 win, 5 losses.
dasauto says:
10:47 AM, 10/16/2009
I would question the balance of comparing an AWD Audi vs a RWD 335i. The AWD versions always put their power down better than RWD. I've seen numerous testers with 335i 0-60 times in the low 4's, so this one seems pretty odd at 5.3. RWD wheelspin perhaps?
Regardless, an S4 vs 335Xi seems much more appropriate than this comparison.
DasAuto
dasauto says:
10:40 AM, 10/16/2009
I would question the balance of comparing an AWD Audi vs a RWD 335i. The AWD versions always put their power down better than RWD. I've seen numerous testers with 335i 0-60 times in the low 4's, so this one seems pretty odd at 5.3. RWD wheelspin perhaps?
Regardless, an S4 vs 335Xi seems much more appropriate than this comparison.
DasAuto
louiswei says:
07:42 AM, 10/16/2009
@ ba27,
My opinion about you don't care about "value" is just plain simple... MY OPINION.
That is NOT "facts"
Get you fact straight before you came on here to blah blah blah...
dooderoo says:
12:34 AM, 10/16/2009
BTW, 335i beats the S4 in German Magazine "Sport Auto" (Part of Auto Motor Sport).
http://www.sportauto-online.de/vergleichstest/bmw-335i-gegen-audi-s4-mittelklassen-sechszylinder-im-duell-1037101.html?paging_current=1
They came out equal but the BMW beat the S4 due to lower price. In other words: spend the money on better tires or some modifications to the suspension and the BMW is going to win. Again.
ba27 says:
07:57 PM, 10/15/2009
Louis:
Your suggestion that I don't appreciate or care about value is as unjustified as it is pathetic, but hey, when the facts don't support your beliefs, just make up "facts" of your own!!
everett2 says:
06:37 PM, 10/15/2009
in an attempt to make the bimmer cheaper...audi gets paint $ option...bmw gets red 0 cost option.
everett2 says:
06:35 PM, 10/15/2009
just so nobody is fooled here.....optioning out the 335 would have made the car slower, and more expensive.....giving up the only points it made for being cheaper. If the cars were speced the same, the S4 would have won by a larger margin.
What kind of a sports car comes stock with 17" wheels, no differential, no leather. In an attempt to be competitive on price, bmw has built a sub standard car. If you spec it out loaded....it is just a substandard car that now costs too much.
The 335 should be compared to the 10k cheaper A4.....then some would save the 10k and pick the A4, or spend a tad more and get a S4 that unaminously beats the 335 in every test ever conducted.
This is why bmw sales are off by 50% year over year, while Audi just set its best year ever record for sales.
louiswei says:
04:40 PM, 10/15/2009
Oh yeah... The S4 has certainly "raised the bar", the bar of How-ridiculous-can-these-entry-level-luxury-sedans-cost has gone from $50k to $60k.
GOOD JOB AUDI!
ba27 says:
04:25 PM, 10/15/2009
Doodlebug:
I have a better idea - you face up to the fact that the S4 is the better car. I say it, Edmunds says it, and every other comparison test done between the 2 says it.
Why doesn't the 335i have an LSD by the way? An LSD is "standard equipment" on any car pretending to offer performance.
"Barely beats"??? You can't be serious?? 2 (more) examples:
- I'm 6' 2" and 200 lb, and there's NO WAY I can sit in the back of the 3 series. There's no room back there. Sedans should be able to seat 4 adults comfortably - otherwise what's the point? An adult fits fine in the back of the S4.
- If I wanted to drive in the winter here in Chicago, the non-LSD RWD 3er wouldn't be any fun, whereas the S4 offers 4-season all-weather performance. Don't forget that it's also more capable in the dry, and on the track.
Don't get me wrong - I like BMWs - almost bought a 530i, until I realized that it was mostly outclassed (and completely outrun) by the A6 2.7T.
The new S4 has raised the bar in this class, just as the 3er has been doing for years.
dooderoo says:
03:24 PM, 10/15/2009
"This is how Audi sees it"
Wow, is that the official Audi "Let's play catch-up with BMW" chart from the local Fanclub? Face it, ba27, the much newer, more expensive Audi barely beats the bare-bones 335i.
ba27 says:
12:55 PM, 10/15/2009
The S4 is a step up from the 335i - I'll give you that.
This is how Audi sees it:
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4b8/msgs/2697.phtml
Note competitive model comparison, as well as pricing comparison.
louiswei says:
12:55 PM, 10/15/2009
@ ba27,
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
dooderoo says:
09:34 AM, 10/15/2009
Actually there's only "One Compelling Reason To Spend $50K on a Sport Sedan": BMW 335i
Also, there's probably only "One Compelling Reason To Spend $60K on a Sport Sedan": BMW M3
;-)
While it's certainly a nice car, it's not entirely fair to compare the S4 to a plain vanilla 335i. The S4 is a "special/sport edition" A4, with sports trim, differential, etc. The 335i is a plain 3series with a big engine. Simply put, BMW has no car in the S4 category, but it speaks volumes that their much cheaper "civilian" offering gives the S4 such a hard time.
ba27 says:
08:46 AM, 10/15/2009
@Louis:
Measurements of specific manoeuvers say next to nothing about how a car actually performs overall.
Lap times reveal much more about a vehicle's true capabilities:
S4: 1:09.7
335i: 1:11.3
335i LOST.
Again.
Still.
louiswei says:
09:46 PM, 10/14/2009
@ ba27,
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
ba27 says:
08:50 PM, 10/14/2009
@ Louis:
The 335i LOST.
Again.
Still.
And, from the acceleration figures and the test-drivers' comments, it doesn't stand a chance against an S4 in a driving around town, in a straight line, around corners, OR on a track.
'Nuff said.
louiswei says:
07:34 PM, 10/14/2009
@ ba27,
Do I drive on the track every single day?
Nope.
'Nuff said.
ba27 says:
12:31 PM, 10/14/2009
@Louis:
" I usually focus more on the actually (sic) specs and performance numbers."
Okay, how about THESE "actually" peformance numbers, from MOTOR magazine, down under:
http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss163/GoranL/S4vFPVvBMW11.jpg
http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss163/GoranL/S4vFPVvBMW12.jpg
louiswei says:
10:39 AM, 10/14/2009
@ ba27:
I fooled who and what?
Nice try but please don't be mad just because I have a more thorough and precise pricing/equipment comparison than yours...
Talking about RS4, how much did the old RS4 cost again? If my memory serves me right, the old RS4 is about $10k more than the M3. So thank you sir because you have just solidified my argument, both Audi's 335i and M3 competitors are more expensive (by quiet a margin) and offer minimal, if not nothing at all, performance advantage over their competitors.
Apparently the word "value" doesn't exist in Audi's dictionary.
ba27 says:
10:26 AM, 10/14/2009
@Louis:
Nice try, but configuring the cars in a specific manner just to prove your point doesn't fool anyone.
The fact stands: The S4 has won every comparison with the 335i yet published.
Oh, and the RS4 is Audi's direct competitor to the M3, not the S4.
jazzor says:
08:43 AM, 10/14/2009
The 335i has always been fugly so that one's out of the question... now the S4 (as well as the RS4) has always been a car I've been interested in... but ahem, 60k for a car that does the same numbers my 2009 Cheapsubishi Lancer Ralliart does with an AMS ECU Reflash and 235mm of sticky dunlop z1 star-spec rubber, wow.... Let me see, oh it's also AWD, and it has two LSD, oh and ASC!, and AWC!, with a 6-speed Twin Clutch auto-manual transmission, Projector-HID Headlamps, Leather Recaro Sport seats, Keyless Entry & Start, 710watts Rockford Folsgate Audi System with 40GB Navigation System (yeah, the one Navi that won the JDPower classification in 2008) + Bluetooth Phone System, upgraded 2010 European-distributed Lancers Interior bits (at least doesnt look as cheap as earlier 2008 Evo interior models) all that for 33k... roughly almost 30k less! ... Thanks, but no Thanks! Maybe one day, when the Dollar is strong again and our Country is once again a prosperous one, then we can think of buying these expensive german cars for no apparent reason whatsoever :)
Plus, i don't think the S4 is near M3 territory yet, so they shouldn't be compared... well Price-wise yes, and that's my complaint! (damn if i had the money I'd buy me an overpriced RS4 instead what the heck!)
louiswei says:
08:14 AM, 10/14/2009
@ ba27,
Yes I do have a question...
Where is following in your S4 pricing?
- Key keyless start/stop
- Autodimming interior/exterior mirrors
- Compass in mirror
- position memory for driver seat and exterior mirrors
The fact is that they are not included in the $51,350 because you simply CANNOT get those options without selecting the PRESTIGE package. However, all the options listed above are included in the 335i pricing that you provided.
So, let me help you out here...
335i, manual tranny:
Base MSRP $40,300
Space Gray Metallic $550
Cold Weather Package $1,150
Premium Package $2,650
Sport Package $2,150
Navigation system $2,100
Comfort Access keyless entry $500
Smartphone Integration $150
iPod and USB adapter $400
Logic7 sound system with Surround Sound and Digital Sound Processing $875
Destination & Handling: $825
Total MSRP as Built $51,650
S4, manual tranny:
3.0 TFSI® Premium Plus with six-speed manual transmission and quattro® $45,900
WPT Prestige Package $6,100
PDU Sports Rear Differential Package $1,100
N1U Silk Nappa Leather Seats $1,000
Destination Charge $825
Total MSRP as Built $54,925
Just for giggles... Barebone M3:
Base MSRP $54,850
Alpine White $0
Anthracite & Black Cloth/Leather $0
Titanium Shadow trim $0
Destination & Handling: $825
Total MSRP as Built $55,675
jkp1187 says:
07:27 AM, 10/14/2009
"articchoco says:
Why in the hell is the S4 with its nearly 60k sticker price not being compared to the M3 Sedan which cost nearly the same. "
Completely agree. S4 is SUPPOSED to be a performance version of the standard A4, just as the M3 is supposed to be a performance version of the standard 3-series.
Clearly the S4 is a great achievement, but if I'm already in for $50k, I'll compare it against the M3, not the 335i.
ba27 says:
06:34 AM, 10/14/2009
Let's put the issue of price to bed, once and for all: (thanks to "nirad" for the comparison)
Here's a realistic, not overboard, example of how someone might spec a 6 speed 335:
Base MSRP $40,300
Space Gray Metallic $550
Cold Weather Package $1,150
Premium Package $2,650
Sport Package $2,150
Navigation system $2,100
Smartphone Integration $150
iPod and USB adapter $400
Logic7 sound system with Surround Sound and Digital Sound Processing $875
Destination & Handling: $825
Total MSRP as Built $51,150
And here's a similarly configured S4:
3.0 TFSI® Premium Plus with six-speed manual transmission and quattro® $45,900
Sports Rear Differential Package $1,100
Audi MMI® Navigation Plus Package $2,500
Bang & Olufsen® Sound System $850
Silk Nappa Leather $1,000
Total Price $51,350
Any questions???
articchoco says:
11:14 PM, 10/13/2009
Why in the hell is the S4 with its nearly 60k sticker price not being compared to the M3 Sedan which cost nearly the same.
kidplatinum says:
10:41 PM, 10/13/2009
I am becoming more a fan of Audi simply because BMW seems to be losing their touch, at least in my opinion. Styling is much better too, agian that is my personal opinion...and I own and E46 330i ZHP.
If it were me I would go with a low milage E46 M3...but out of these two I think I would take the S4.
efinils2 says:
09:28 PM, 10/13/2009
BMW or Audi? No thanks, I will take a Lotus Elise S and call it a day!
markedwards says:
09:09 PM, 10/13/2009
The price and equipment differences of these two vehicles makes the comparison essentially meaningless. Clearly they're close but if the BMW had more options and the Audi fewer (notably navigation-media control and the assorted electronic suspension aids) would the outcome have been reversed? Probably.
I was in the market for a German sedan in the $40 to 50K range last month. The S4 excited me, not the least of which because I've owned a string of VW-Audi vehicles. My excitement though cooled considerably after driving the sole S4 my dealer had--a base Premium Plus package. Its only option was the 7-speed DSG. No drive select. No special differential. I was shocked because it felt too big, too heavy and a bit on the soft side.
In contrast, the 3-series seemed right in every way. The steering feel and smaller size pushed me into the BMW camp. The A4/S4 is a full seven inches longer; that makes a huge difference in the tight urban garages where my cars live. Add in the fact that the limited S4 supply gave Audi dealers little reason to negotiate while BMW has generous incentives on its plentiful stock and you can easily guess what I drove home.
Three weeks into owning the 3, I have no regrets about my decision.
everett2 says:
05:22 PM, 10/13/2009
The europe tests have the bmw getting dominated in all areas. Here in the US, it is a kinder gentler beating....aka fibs. Real world back to back drives show just how far apart these two have become. One thing stands, and that is an undefeated record of wins for the S4 vs. the 335 in every single shootout to date. Next year shouldn't be tuff to stay ahead, since this is the first year, and there is a ton of room to make the S4 even better, with mild tweaks here and there.
I don't think bmw has the $$ to build a competent openent during its poor sales years. It could be a real changing of the guard. M3 is out the window soon too due to poor sales. Cost will be the only saviour for continued car sales. BMW will need to compete on value vs. class leader.....kinda like Audi did for the last 15 years. Now bmw prices have fallen below audis, and yet audis have poored more performance in while bmw slacked off.....talk about a complete reversal of positions. In 98 when the bmw 328 was 10k more in canada then a 2.8 A4 to this.
t10 says:
03:58 PM, 10/13/2009
Wow these cars are only 4 MPH slower in the slalom that the Mazda 3 (speed) !
I love the looks of the Audi, and overall package and pricing for base is even reasonable (as it goes for german cars). But these things are getting fatter all the time. At the end of the day I'd probably rather have an E46 M3 than either of these.
ba27 says:
12:28 PM, 10/13/2009
@ Louis:
The as-tested price has NOTHING to do with the way a consumer might spec a car. All the S4 press cars were early-build, and loaded to the gills.
Comparably-equipped, the cars' prices are close enough that it won't matter to people shopping in this price range.
BTW - did you notice that the S4 won this comparison DESPITE the as-tested price difference? If the cars had been comparably equipped, the margin of victory would have been that much greater.
Just sayin'...
louiswei says:
11:50 AM, 10/13/2009
@ ba27,
The 335i is cheaper (by 10 grands according the as-test price and good luck on finding a S4 that's below $50k on the lot), handles equally well, is lighter, has better steering feel and is only a tad slower than the S4. If I live in the snow-belt then I'll definitely consider a S4 but too bad I don't...
Not to mention with $59k one can get a pretty decent equipped M3 sedan for those who want value (apparently something that's not in Audi's dictionary) and the pure RWD driving experience.
ba27 says:
11:34 AM, 10/13/2009
Louis:
OK, then, how about these:
S4 is quicker, faster, handles at least as well in the dry and much better in any other kind of weather, plus is bigger, roomier, particularly in the back seat, has MUCH more trunk space (16 cubic feed vs. 12) and looks better. Oh, and it has better crash-test ratings, too.
Not buying it? Then add the fact that the S4 has won EVERY comparison test with the 335i yet published (including foreign press, Euro and Australian).
Still not convinced? Then get a 335i. ;-)
pele96 says:
11:05 AM, 10/13/2009
Another thing that I noticed about the acceleration times. They with and without stabiliyu control on with the S4. The BMW 335i also has that feature. Why didn't they perform the same exact tests???
louiswei says:
10:53 AM, 10/13/2009
Honestly, I don't buy that Audi should get the free pass on the higher price because it has Quattro, or AWD; because without Quattro, Audi is NOTHING! It's not like Audi has a RWD version of the S4 and Quattro is an option, Quattro is STANDARD on the S4 just like the 335i comes standard in RWD.
ba27 says:
10:38 AM, 10/13/2009
It's important to realize is that the price difference is more like $1-$3K (S4 is still more) when comparably equipped. The S4 includes quattro and a folding rear seat at that price, which makes the price difference moot.
Also remember that the 335i doesn't even offer a limited-slip differential - not a good choice for a 300+HP RWD vehicle.
ag4 says:
10:14 AM, 10/13/2009
The Audi S4 barely beat the BMW 335i, but its hard to believe that its as-tested price hits $59K, thats more than the base price of a BMW M3 sedan!
kingkhalas says:
09:38 AM, 10/13/2009
10K more is a lot of money.
Good comparison test.
icecubefosho says:
08:03 AM, 10/13/2009
The numbers are so close that they can be within margins of error. Also remember not every car is the same, there are many variables that gave the S4 the very SLIGHT bump in performance.
Don't get me wrong, I would take an Audi over a BMW any day, I hate current gen BMWs except for the 6 series. Yet I can't deny that the Audi didn't SWEEP the BMW. Its kinda funny that the "S" series can't compete with the "M" and instead goes for a vanilla 335i.
louiswei says:
08:01 AM, 10/13/2009
@ 94_gsr_cpe,
For a whooping $10k more, the S4 should out-run, out-handle and out-everything the BMW by a much wider margin than the test result...
And based on this:
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
and this: "We still prefer the more natural feel of the BMW's steering to the S4's responsive but slightly over-boosted setup."
I wouldn't say the S4 has "out-handled" the 335i. Maybe your butt has some speed and yaw sensor attached to it but I know for sure the mine couldn't detect that 0.4 mph difference in the slalom.
pele96 says:
06:54 AM, 10/13/2009
Looks its simple. This is all about marketing. Alot of car companies will pay these people to be biased towards their cars. Audi is a great car but didn't this same BMW sedan run a 0-60 4.8 sec in Car & Driver in 07'. Imagine if again the BMW was picked again.
94_gsr_cpe says:
05:36 AM, 10/13/2009
The S4 out runs, out handles, and out smarts the BMW. That's objective, so grow up.
icecubefosho says:
10:17 PM, 10/12/2009
Exactly, they're comparing these cars to see what the more pleasant daily driver would be rather than which is truly the better performer.
The better "car" could be contested if its more performance or more daily-driverness is what makes a better car so they kind of go with Daily-Driverness with this one.
Honestly I've ALWAYS hated the rear of this generation's BMW sedans. I'd never trade my Xterra for a BMW M5 no matter how fast it is. The coupes are nice but man those sedan rears are just hideous.
I think the Audi definently wins in the looks department. It has more technology/conveniences, the AWD is helpful for Snow/Rain driving, and has better rear legroom. All of these "positives" attribute to Edmunds siding with "daily-driverness" as being the better car.
louiswei says:
10:06 PM, 10/12/2009
No, I haven't been in the new S4 yet but based on my experienced in the new A4 Quattro, coutless times in the 335i and this sentence:
"We still prefer the more natural feel of the BMW's steering to the S4's responsive but slightly over-boosted setup."
I say... 'Nuff said.
The BMW is cheaper (by 10 grands according the as-test price and good luck on find a S4 that's below $50k on the lot), handles equally well, has better steering feel and is only a tad slower than the S4... The only strong suit of the S4 seems to be more "confident" due to the AWD setup, but what happen to that "true driver's car" banner the automotive editors always like to wave? What about that thrill that only the RWD cars can provide? So is InsideLine admitting here that technology > the enthusiasts?
Too many loop holes in this comparison and not enough evident to back it up, but of course, that's only my humble opinion.
icecubefosho says:
09:57 PM, 10/12/2009
Louis, read the second opinion
"Wait...what? This thing is $10K more than the BMW? Yipes! Looks like Audi has learned more from BMW than anyone knew. The M.O. goes like this: Throw the sportiest, most expensive car at the class. The enthusiast journalists will always bite the performance bait and ultimately they won't be writing the monthly checks and so care only theoretically about the cost.
Nice car, though."
cx7lover says:
09:33 PM, 10/12/2009
They don't have to be smoking anything, something tells me that from you posting prices and test results, you haven't been in both back to back like IL has been. When that happens let me know. Even then, comparing numbers is absoutlely rediculous. The Evo X handles "better" (posts higher track numbers) than both but really, what does that say about the overall package OR feel?
louiswei says:
09:22 PM, 10/12/2009
Base MSRP: $46,725 vs. $41,125
As-tested MSRP: $59,150 vs. $49,320
Slalom: 68.8 (67.2 with stability control on) vs. 68.4
Skid pad: 0.90 (0.92 with stability control on) vs. 0.92
Audi, are you effing kidding me?
InsideLine, what are you smoking? I want in...
icecubefosho says:
09:08 PM, 10/12/2009
I'll skip for a dark gray RS4 Avant.