Test-driving cars in Southern California is like eating meals only when you're ravenous. Even the lowliest Sysco-truck-delivered frozen dinner tastes a little more palatable when your blood sugar level has bottomed out.
And so as we (which is to say your humble Senior Editor, Detroit) look out our office window at a patchwork of white snow, snotty gray slush and black ice all topped with a sky the color of raw aluminum, we accept that our criteria for automotive goodness might be slightly different from that of the Santa Monicans we call colleagues.
And that brings us to the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD, which is available for the new year with a six-speed manual transmission. How so?
Well, after extensive testing in the hinterlands of southeastern Michigan (as well as track testing in California), we are ready to award the Acura TL SH-AWD manual the very classy honor: The (Northern) Gentleman's Sporty Sedan.
Snow: The Concealer and Revealer
OK fine, it is true that we first conceived of the idea for "The (Northern) Gentleman's Sporting Sedan" when we stepped out to our driveway one morning and saw the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD covered in a couple inches of snow. At the risk of putting too fine a point on it, the TL bodywork does not look worse when covered in a couple inches of snow. We were pleased enough with the gently curving new white body that we decided to leave the snow on the vehicle instead of brushing it off. We're not saying you should do this. Nor are we saying that we entered public roads, such as, say, Woodward Avenue on a Tuesday morning, trailing a whiteout of snow blowing off the car.
Further, it's true that you wouldn't even have to brush off the rear window to back out of your narrow two-track driveway because your 2010 Acura TL comes with the Tech package, which comes with a rearview camera mounted on the trunk lid. Now, in theory, one could simply look at the 8-inch, high-resolution color display mounted in the dash, with occasional peeks out the only lightly dusted side windows, and successfully back out while the rear defroster works its magic. We're not entirely sure the mangled boxwood hedge would agree that the back-up was entirely successful, but that's why you should never listen to your bushes.
Since the laws of physics work even in Michigan, the Acura torque-vectoring AWD is welcome on the snow.
But then you reply, "Sure, but I could do something that dumb in the TL SH-AWD equipped with the automatic or even in the standard front-drive TL." That is true. However, what you cannot do, at least not as easily, is jolt the accumulated snow off the car at will with intentionally rough shifts once under way. Remember what evil Jackie Stewart, the dark side of the three-time Formula 1 driving champion, used to say: "Smooth is for wee namby-pamby knicker-wetters." The idea here is to initiate a quick vehicle attitude and speed change to get your snow pile wind-erosion thing kicked into action. A simple clutch-drop on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts usually does the trick nicely.
Smooth, Baby, Smooth
And the Acura makes this even easier than usual because you don't have to try hard to shift roughly in this car. The clutch take-up is abrupt and occurs high in the clutch-pedal travel. This is a consistent, if not exactly cherished, characteristic of Acuras with manual transmissions, if we remember the old CL Type-S accurately. Acura says it has designed an entirely new clutch for this TL compared to the previous-generation version. We believe them. But it still feels a lot like we remember.
The six-speed gearbox is as smooth in operation and mechanically pleasing as the clutch is not. It operates something like a Honda shifter, then. It's the addition of this new transmission to the TL's existing torque-vectoring all-wheel-drive system that makes the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD manual such a Northerner's joy. Though Honda conceived of this all-wheel-drive system with dry performance as high a priority as foul-weather traction, it's a welcome companion in all kinds of weather.
SHAWD-a Had a Different Name
Acura's clumsily named SH-AWD system is anything but clumsy in operation. And that goes for dry roads, our dry slalom test or snow pack. Its ability to overdrive or spin up an outside rear wheel in a corner keeps understeer at bay and does more to hide the Acura's nose-heavy weight distribution than we would have thought possible. And the system reacts quickly enough that only in the most extreme high-speed cases, such as a full-bore blast through the slalom course, will a driver notice any lag in the system's operation. Since the laws of physics remain in place even in Michigan, the Acura torque-vectoring trickery is as welcome on the snow as on Mulholland Drive out there next to Santa Monica.
With the power delivery system taking up some of the work of improving handling and increasing stability, Acura has been able to dial back the TL's standard stability control system. As our track tester noted, "The remarkable ESP system merely trims the car's heading as a last resort." Still, you're going to want to turn that stuff off before you perform your vehicular ballet demo in a snow-covered parking lot.
The electric-assist steering is quick and accurate, if a little lacking in feel. Somehow, it suits the techy character of the car, though. Ride quality is a bone of contention, though. Opt for the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 summer tires and 19-inch wheels that come with the $1,000 HPT option and you should be prepared for a ride that falls on the sporty side of the luxury-sport continuum. This is how our track-test car in California was equipped and we heard some complaints from passengers. Our Detroit tester wore the standard 18-inch all-season Michelins, and we registered no ride quality complaints. Our ideal setup would be summer tires on the 18-inch wheels that we would swap out for a set of 18-inch winter tires. Best tools for the job and all that.
With the PS2s, the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD manual pulled essentially the same number in our slalom test as the last TL SH-AWD automatic did, which is no real surprise, since that car wore the same kind of tires. The six-speed TL will rock through the slalom at 67.6 mph with the traction and stability control on and 68.5 mph with it off. The last Infiniti G37 managed 66.7 mph. The last BMW 335i we tested made it through at 68.4 mph. (Both competitors wore summer performance tires as well.) The Acura stops from 60 mph in 110 feet, a foot shorter than the BMW, identical to the Infiniti and only a foot longer than the sportier Audi S4.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
But the automatic TL SH-AWD proved last year that it could post impressive handling numbers at the track. What was missing was the accelerative force to hang with the sport-sedan class leaders.
The six-speed manual transmission helps a great deal in this regard. That the newly designed gearbox is 110 pounds lighter than the automatic helps, and the additional gear ratio doesn't hurt either. The manual car is a full second quicker both to 60 mph and then through the quarter-mile than an otherwise identical TL SH-AWD carrying the familiar five-speed automatic. At 5.6 seconds to 60 mph (5.4 seconds with a 1-foot rollout like on a drag strip) and 13.9 through the quarter-mile at 100.1 mph, this car matches almost exactly the numbers posted by the last G37 we tested. Sure, that Infiniti was equipped with a seven-speed automatic, but a G37 coupe we tested was no faster with the six-speed manual. The TL still falls behind the manual BMW 335i by almost a half-second in most measures of acceleration, however.
With this performance, Acura has taken away one of the reasons to not buy the TL, though. With similar tires, the Acura would trounce the rear-drive dandies in any test of acceleration on a snow-covered surface (which is the everyday environment of the Northern Gentleman).
The Coda
What else? Well, the rest of the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD manual is just like the automatic version. Same trying looks, same button-happy center stack, same price, same broad breadth of capabilities.
Importantly, the manual version also uses the same toggle-switch-style seat heater controls. The significance of this cannot be understated for mid-winter mornings. No need to turn on the seat heaters every time you start the car. In January, you just want the bun-warming to begin immediately. That switch would just stay on HI from late November through March.
The manufacturer provided Edmunds this vehicle for the purposes of evaluation.
Add A Comment »
jmin says:
11:58 AM, 05/02/2010
BMW 3 coupes and Audi's 5's are chick cars here in LA. They should be put on the same list as Mini's and VW Bugs. STOP DRIVING AUTOMATIC CARS YOU PANZIES!!! I don't care if it has 8 gears and three clutches! In fact - if you don't drive a stick - please don't blog on car sites until you pull your sting out.
I tried to find a 335 or an S5 with manual to test drive and could find one within 400 miles!!! How lame is that?
I like the TL styling. I further like that no-one else does which allowed me to get a steal. I like the SH-AWD - makes the car fun as hell to drive fast. The feeling is like carving on a snowboard - lean into the turn, grab the inside edge and shift weight from front the back through the turn. The SH-AWD gives you this sensation.
IMHO:)
ahsanman99 says:
05:43 AM, 02/04/2010
Iam wondering if they are going to offer Type-S version some time this or next year.that will be nice,all they have to do is tweak the same motor and push around 350hp.this car does look very nice and the front is beautiful and bold.G35 was nice looking in coupe only.G37 is ugly.BMW still have plain bland look of 20 year old car with two vents in the middle,all audis look the same and you cant really tell what it is unless you read the back,and they have no ground breaking design either.I will pick this acura over audi.bmw because it looks nicer,bolder and stylish.iam sure Acura will have good resale value and reliability too.
everett2 says:
09:01 AM, 01/31/2010
57.5 db at 70mph....either this is the quietest car in the world, or that is a typo and should be 67.5 db.
joemt says:
09:23 AM, 01/28/2010
Finally! Congratulations Edmunds for being the first for a full test of the 6MT (among cars.com, Car and Driver, R&T and Automobile).
Living in the NE, AWD is pretty much a necessity. I want to continue driving a MT until my knees give out or I'm too old to drive. (I don't care how advanced the new ATs are.)
It's too bad Infiniti has yet to put a MT in the G37x. I thought the sports suspension was now available in the x, but not according to their site.
I currently drive an older S4 and will be buying in a year or two. The TL is certainly a bargain compared to the new S4, although the Audi performs better and gets stronger gas mileage numbers. Per this review, the TL is worth consideration.
ba27 says:
07:27 AM, 01/28/2010
1487: "I believe the Jeep SRT8 and Trailblazer SS were RWD only. Are you sure the Jeep has AWD? Better check on that."
You can believe that if you like, but you're wrong.
I don't need to check on it.
1487 says:
06:58 AM, 01/28/2010
"Ummmmm, no again, O ignorant one. Taurus SHO used to be FWD only, but is now AWD only, but.......nice try."
You are proving his point. The SHO has AWD because 365hp is too much to route through the front wheels. Ford has abandoned RWD except for the Mustang so it has to use AWD on its powerful cars like MKS Ecoboost and SHO. The Taurus SHO is just like the TL in that regard. You are arguing against a commonly known truth- a FWD based car needs AWD to handle the amount of power of competitive performance oriented RWD cars. Period.
"Hmmmm, I wonder why the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 is the quickest of all the SRT8 cars. Could it be its AWD??? Ya think? And THAT vehicle was RWD to begin with, in the entry-level models. Wait, did I just prove your theory wrong? Yep. "
I believe the Jeep SRT8 and Trailblazer SS were RWD only. Are you sure the Jeep has AWD? Better check on that.
"For the record, I never suggested that the TL could only be compared to AWD versions of its competitors. I just think that's the fairer comparison, since the TL will be able to repeat its peformance every time, while the RWD cars will sometimes struggle with traction."
Are you aware that modern cars have traction control and increasingly RWD performance cars have launch control? You can launch most modern cars if you leave traction control engaged and even if you get a better launch in an AWD car the mass will catch up to you sooner or later. A G37 is likely to beat a TL-SH-AWD in a quarter mile drag race because its lighter and has more hp. The TL may win 0-30 or 0-60 due to traction advantages but the laws of physics can't be changed.
ba27 says:
06:34 AM, 01/28/2010
OK, I gotta call a penalty on myself - 15 yards for an unnecessary insult.
lexuslvr: No offense intended - I shouldn't have used that adjective.
ba27 says:
05:59 PM, 01/27/2010
lexuslvr:
Ummmmm, no again, O ignorant one. Taurus SHO used to be FWD only, but is now AWD only, but.......nice try.
All the other powerful RWD cars you mention can smoke their rear tires. Great, unless you actually want to MOVE. It takes trial and error to get quick off-the-line acceleration with them, because the power overwhelms the rear tires. Surely you've seen drag racing before? What's the toughest thing to overcome? TRACTION issues. And those are all RWD vehicles.
Hmmmm, I wonder why the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 is the quickest of all the SRT8 cars. Could it be its AWD??? Ya think? And THAT vehicle was RWD to begin with, in the entry-level models. Wait, did I just prove your theory wrong? Yep.
Say it with me: AWD cars don't have traction problems - they just go.
All that matters is the performance. Whether the vehicle started with RWD vs FWD doesn't matter at all.
You shoulda seen the look on the Camaro SS driver's face the other day as his girlfriend laughed at him as I smoked him away from a stoplight in slightly damp conditions. Or the E39 M5 driver who's STILL trying to figure out how to launch his car in a way that allowed him to outrun me in my lowly A6 2.7T quattro. I could go on, but the point is made.
For the record, I never suggested that the TL could only be compared to AWD versions of its competitors. I just think that's the fairer comparison, since the TL will be able to repeat its peformance every time, while the RWD cars will sometimes struggle with traction.
Oh, and did you happen to notice that the porky, oversized TL out-slalomed ALL of its competitors - even the vaunted 335i? Priceless.
lexuslvr says:
12:12 PM, 01/27/2010
"I fail to understand how your opinion of what a car "needs" is related in any way to the discussion of the car in this article.
I suppose, though, that with your extensive street and track experience in vehicles with all types of drive systems, that we should all take your comments as fact! (/sarcasm)
(rolls eyes)"
Hmmm lets see this started when you told 1487 that the G37x and 335xi must be the only cars compared to the TL-SH-AWD. I said no the G37x and 335xi did not need to because the TLs AWD system is needed for its performance targets and 1487 said "Many G's in my area are the X model so that would increase weight and cost but the bottom line is you HAVE to get the SH-AWD model and its weight and cost to match the performance of the base G37. You need to spend $42k at Acura to get the same performance as a $36k Infiniti." Imagine the TL SH-AWD 6-speed manual with only front wheel drive doing nothing but spinning its tires do to lack of traction of all its power routed to the front wheels. Nasty site. Now Imagine the 333 hp S4 with FWD spinning its front tires like its no tomorrow because its 325 lb-ft won't allow it any traction. Again for the MKS Ecoboost's 350 lb-ft and 355 hp. Do you see why these vehicles need AWD? And like 1487 and I said these AWD systems are designed to deliver the performance of a RWD car(with the Audis 40:60 split and rear LSD). If the TL and S4 were to have a RWD platform do you think they would need AWD? Does a 300C SRT8 need to have AWD to get its power to the ground? What about the Camaro SS? Pontiac G8 GXP? Mustang GT? Taurus SHO? Ding ding ding we have a winner! Are you still confused because I'll still try to help you out.
ba27 says:
11:35 AM, 01/27/2010
lexuslvr: "Is anything clicking?"
Nope, it's not.
I fail to understand how your opinion of what a car "needs" is related in any way to the discussion of the car in this article.
I suppose, though, that with your extensive street and track experience in vehicles with all types of drive systems, that we should all take your comments as fact! (/sarcasm)
(rolls eyes)
lexuslvr says:
11:05 AM, 01/27/2010
"Please explain how a RWD DRIFT CAR is in any way related to the discussion about this Acura TL, or about FWD vs. AWD vs. RWD?
It's a Competition car, for pity's sake!!!!"
You still aint gettin it if a powerful car has RWD It doesn't need AWD but if it is a powerful car in which the front wheels would normally drive the wheels then it NEEDS AWD.
Is anything clicking?
DLu says:
08:50 AM, 01/27/2010
The G37x does have a jittery/busy ride; TL SH-AWD was too soft ( thankfully not like most Lexus cars ... is the 6-spd better?); 3-series was my favorite.
jazzor says:
07:20 AM, 01/27/2010
Just buy yourself an Evo MR Touring and forget about these porks, good for nothing, expensive mother suckers, and keep some change to buy some mods :-)
End of story. I wish they would've kept the older style. The TL Type-S was one of my favorite saloon cars until I found I could get me an used Evo IX MR for 25k
ba27 says:
04:28 AM, 01/27/2010
"lexuslvr: "HERE IS A FREAKIN RWD EVO!!!!!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfeqy27PZ0&search=Rhys%20Millen."
Please explain how a RWD DRIFT CAR is in any way related to the discussion about this Acura TL, or about FWD vs. AWD vs. RWD?
It's a Competition car, for pity's sake!!!!
canddmeyer says:
01:07 AM, 01/27/2010
While I cannot comment on the AWD, I've been in the FWD w/Tech model and it is sweet. I'd recommend it to anyone.
castlebravo says:
10:54 PM, 01/26/2010
While I understand that Honda(Acura) spends lots of money on their own internal Design departments, I often daydream that Honda, the most engineering-rich of all the Japanese brands, would simply subcontract their design work to one of the Italian design houses.
Then you'd have the best of both worlds.
The current Acura brushed stainless bulldog look is just DOA (ask their dealers). Hopefully Honda have caught themselves before going over the cliff with Toyota, although Acura added with the new CR-Z leaves me despairing for the old hatchback Civics and Accords that are smaller than Crown Victorias.
lexuslvr says:
10:26 PM, 01/26/2010
"xoquixxoqafxo says:
09:30 PM, 01/26/2010
Dear LexusLvr,
When you have to downshift 4 gear ratios on the highway to get any real passing power, it means that maybe you have a little too many speeds. They should have stopped at 6 speeds. It provides the perfect amount of top gear cruising for fuel economy and ease of dropping into a lower gear for passing poiwer. I mean seriously, what the hell is next after that, if someone comes up with the 9 speed or 10 speed auto then that is just absolutely ridiculous."
Actually the problem has already been solved. The new ZF 8-speed auto already has a bypass feature that allows the transmission to shift directly from top gear to lowest possible gear.
"Due to changes in internal design, shift times have reduced to 200 milliseconds, along with the ability to shift in a non-sequential manner - going from 8th to 2nd in extreme situations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission
Problem solved. Now the car buyer can be happier along with the EPA.
xoquixxoqafxo says:
09:35 PM, 01/26/2010
Also, dear double_duece
The only car that you mentioned that's decent is the Taurus SHO, only because ford is doing much better and they are the only American car company that didn't file for bankruptcy. (I'll even admit that the new Taurus SHO is a very sharp looking car). That is exactly why in most survey consumers are steering clear of GM and Chrysler. Im sorry but even GM latest products are still somewhat of a disappointment.
xoquixxoqafxo says:
09:30 PM, 01/26/2010
Dear LexusLvr,
When you have to downshift 4 gear ratios on the highway to get any real passing power, it means that maybe you have a little too many speeds. They should have stopped at 6 speeds. It provides the perfect amount of top gear cruising for fuel economy and ease of dropping into a lower gear for passing poiwer. I mean seriously, what the hell is next after that, if someone comes up with the 9 speed or 10 speed auto then that is just absolutely ridiculous.
double_duece says:
09:22 PM, 01/26/2010
Oh screw this. Gimme me a Pontiac G8. Give me a Ford Taurus SHO. Cadillac CTS or even a Chrysler 300C. For that money in this class with those kinds of performance numbers, I feel like I'd at least have more fun in just about anything else. And any of the above is a better-looking choice at the very least.
m89 says:
09:22 PM, 01/26/2010
My two cents on the new TL:
Pros: Awesome engine, transmission and drivetrain combination.
Cons: Big, fat and ugly all around.
Verdict: Transplant the good and put it in a lighter, smaller and stylish package and Acura will have a winner.
rustyshunt says:
08:20 PM, 01/26/2010
Almost 3900 lbs?
Cadillac CTS is like "Have a salad, big drawers!"
Rusty
lexuslvr says:
07:59 PM, 01/26/2010
"lexuslvr: "...unless they can convert it to RWD like they do for EVOs..."
Ummmm, no, again.
The Mitsubishi EVO is AWD, not RWD. It can shift power front to rear and side to side, like some Audis and even this Acura, but it's never RWD"
Damn dude Im not posting BS when I type stuff. HERE IS A FREAKIN RWD EVO!!!!!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfeqy27PZ0&search=Rhys%20Millen.
Trust me I only post stuff that I read about or have seen.
Just in the future know that the person with username "lexuslvr" knows what he is talking about ok.
b_boy_007 says:
07:43 PM, 01/26/2010
I think the front is actually the best angle. It's not attractive from any angle but the rear is much worse and tacky than the front.
I find the front relatively sleek and aggressive. The rear looks ridiculous.
ba27 says:
06:42 PM, 01/26/2010
lexuslvr: "...unless they can convert it to RWD like they do for EVOs..."
Ummmm, no, again.
The Mitsubishi EVO is AWD, not RWD. It can shift power front to rear and side to side, like some Audis and even this Acura, but it's never RWD.
Question to you and 1487, though: With your proclamations about which drive systems are better or worse in various situtations, you must speak from experience, right? By that I mean that you have driven cars with each type of drive system (FWD, AWD and RWD) on BOTH street and track, so that you can speak from experience, and understand what you're talking about.
Right?
(Yes as a matter of fact, I have....)
clarkma5 says:
05:37 PM, 01/26/2010
I've actually really grown to like the looks of the new TL over the last year or so...if anything it's the back that gives me the most reason to pause now, not the front.
sjaieve says:
01:56 PM, 01/26/2010
How is this good at any level, combine the ugly front fascia URGH
"Handling comments Skid pad: With ESP off and in 2nd gear, I found it a little difficult to maintain a line, as the AWD system was busy shifting power all over. Switched to 3rd and it was better behaved and more consistent, but then using throttle to adjust yaw angle to skid pad arc required more patience and felt a little delayed. With ESP on, the car was even more difficult to place precisely on the line, as it merely adds another (electronic) layer between the driver and the mechanicals. Steering effort/build-up feels a little springy. Slalom: There's little doubt this is a tremendously capable sport sedan, but I just wish for equally tremendous feedback that is lacking. Steering is quick and direct, but lacks vocabulary. With ESP off, the car was mostly neutral -- neither under- nor oversteering -- right up to the last cone where a "lift-stab" on the throttle worked to coax some useful rotation. The ESP system is remarkable in that it merely "trims" your heading slightly with brake applications, but kills the enthusiastic WOT exit."
bruceleroy81 says:
01:35 PM, 01/26/2010
Yeeeaaahh!!! 0-60 in 5.3 seconds with roll-out. Now THAT'S what I'm talikin about. That's like 8/10 of a second quicker than the 5-speed automatic version. OH, and the same old trash talking comments that we've already heard about the TL with it's front facsia...BLAH...BLah...blah. Did you guys really think that it was already gonna change? I mean really, c'mon now. This is only the second year this model's been out.
Oh well. I know some people are actually gonna like this car and so far, I'm Impressed with it and I would SO get it. 6-speed manuel is what I've been waitin for. That's quicker than the Infiniti M45, and that's got a V-8.
lexuslvr says:
01:34 PM, 01/26/2010
ba27 you certainly don't know my preference of cars. I love the S4 and love knowing the fact that it won against the BMW 335i, it handles as good as high priced sports cars and that it can crack 0-60 in only 4.6 seconds while looking beautiful doing it. What I am trying to say is FWD cars with alot of horsepower need AWD(unless they can convert it to RWD like they do for EVOs). In turbo AWD cars AWD provides crazy grip. You say AWD creates confidence for you well some people don't need AWD for confidence and can confidently drive a car powered by any set of drive wheels. I know I didn't need AWD when I test drove an IS350, 335i, IS-F even TSX V6 and 9-3 Aero.
ba27 says:
01:14 PM, 01/26/2010
lexuslvr: I appreciate the clarification of the types of cars you like. Personally, I've never driven a Lexus that I could love. Like? Yes. Respect? Certainly. But not love.
No, I don't miss your point about AWD and Audi. Nor do I miss 1487s preference for RWD in many instances.
Instead, I appreciate the extra traction and confidence an AWD car gives. It doesn't matter a whit what anyone's opinion is about how or why a particular car came to be configured the way it is. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. AWD pudding is more effective on the street (and often on the track, too) more of the time.
wikiwiki says:
01:09 PM, 01/26/2010
Give me an Acura or Infiniti any day of the week over BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Lexus, etc. Acura needs to fix that fugly front grille thing but they make great cars.
lexuslvr says:
12:59 PM, 01/26/2010
"MB, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln et. al. now offer AWD on most of their vehicles."
Yes they OFFER it as an option(besides the MKS Ecoboost.) And it is for places like those wintery states where AWD will offer more traction in the snow. Do you consider a MB E350 4motion a sports car by any means? Hell no its slower than the RWD E350. Same as the G37x, CTS AWD, IS250 AWD, GS350 AWD. And for the record the 305 hp TL SH-AWD 5-speed auto is .3 sec slower to 60 than the 280 hp Base TL 5-speed auto. AWD mainly helps in corners, on a track, on the snow.
1487 says:
12:56 PM, 01/26/2010
ba27:
The AWD systems on the CTS/STS and LExus models are for improved foul weather traction ONLY. The TL's system is designed to make a FWD car handle as well as a RWD car- big difference. The CTS doesn't need AWD for handling purposes and its AWD system does nothing for handling other that reduce the likelihood of wheelspin in a hard launch. The TL would not be able to effective handle 305hp without AWD. Honda doesnt make any RWD platforms (S2000 is now gone) so they HAD to implement a complex torque vectoring AWD system to make use of a 305hp engine and to mask the inherent handling problems of a heavy FWD sedan. This car has almost 60% of its weight on the front tires and the AWD system helps compensate for that.
As Lexuslvr stated, most of the top performance cars only drive the rear wheels. You don't find AWD on any M, AMG or V vehicles. Audi has to use AWD for its powerful cars because Audi's platforms are FWD at their core. Only the A8 and R8 arent available with FWD amongst Audis.
lexuslvr says:
12:48 PM, 01/26/2010
ba27 No not just Lexus, I like all great cars.
"Interesting, don't you think, that many of the highest-performing cars on the road now use AWD"
Interesting that many high performance cars on the road use RWD (CTS-V, STS-V, S63, E63, C63, M5, M3, G37, IS350, IS-F, 550i, ZR1, Ferarri 458 Italia(All Ferarris for that matter), Mclaren F1 LM, Camaro SS, 370Z, Mustang GT500, Challenger, Porsche 911, .
There are differences between between these five cars: TL SH-AWD, Audi S4, BMW 335xi, GT-R, and Gallardo. Pricing aside the BMW, GT-R, and Gallaro DO NOT NEED AWD to get power to the ground. The GT-R and Gallardo have high horsepower high torque engines but do not need AWD. Yes it helps but thats what certain AWD systems are designed for. Acura's SH-AWD, Mitsubishi's S-AWC, Saabs Haldex, BMWs Torque Vectoring AWD, Porsches AWD system with Porsche Traction Management, and Audi's Quattro AWD are all designed for performance but only the FWD based cars REQUIRE IT(Acura, Mitsubishi EVO, Saab 9-3 Turbo XWD, Audi). You keep missing the point FWD based cars with high horsepower high torque engines REQUIRE AWD if they want to severe torque steer.
ba27 says:
11:42 AM, 01/26/2010
lexuslvr: (Really? Lexus?)
Interesting, don't you think, that many of the highest-performing cars on the road now use AWD, and that MB, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln et. al. now offer AWD on most of their vehicles. Wonder why....hmmmm...it's a mystery, wrapped in an enigma....
I had a BMW 540i loaner once - From a stop, I turned right and booted it so as not to hold up traffic that was approaching. Got a little sideways, went nowhere fast. Sorta fun, except for the "traffic" part. I've made that same turn dozens of times in my Audi and never held up traffic, nor have I had to countersteer and jump off the gas to keep my heading. AWD gives the average driver a much bigger window of performance/safety on the road. Audi pioneered it (along with Subaru) in street cars - it's just taken the rest of the industry 30 years to catch on...
lexuslvr says:
11:20 AM, 01/26/2010
"Thank you for playing, though - we have some fine parting gifts for you!...."
Pretty lame way of shit talking though. ;-)
lexuslvr says:
11:18 AM, 01/26/2010
ba27 Ok I know all audis have a longitudinally mounted engines except the A1, A2, A3 and TT but A4s only come in FWD and AWD so my point still stands. You won't ever find a S4 with FWD because Audis not stupid enough to route all 333 hp through the front wheels.
ba27 says:
09:55 AM, 01/26/2010
"lexuslvr says: ....and Audi S4 the car must have AWD for the amound of power their transverse engines create."
Ummmm, no.
Audi's engines have always been longitudinally mounted, and the current S4 is no exception.
Thank you for playing, though - we have some fine parting gifts for you!....
beermagazine says:
09:06 AM, 01/26/2010
The transformer mask is too big on the TL, but I've seen it painted body color (even the dumb smirk on the back) and it looks way bettter.
lexuslvr says:
09:05 AM, 01/26/2010
ba27
Like the MKS Ecoboost and Audi S4 the car must have AWD for the amound of power their transverse engines create. If all were RWD like the M35/45 G37, 335i/550i then they wouldn't AWD because RWD would be all they needed to put the power to the ground. AWD for a powerful FWD based car is a NECESSITY not an option so they need to be compared to the RWD competition.
1487 says:
09:00 AM, 01/26/2010
ba27:
Many G's in my area are the X model so that would increase weight and cost but the bottom line is you HAVE to get the SH-AWD model and its weight and cost to match the performance of the base G37. You need to spend $42k at Acura to get the same performance as a $36k Infiniti.
DLu says:
08:36 AM, 01/26/2010
the optional leather seats are buttery and comfy in the TL! still happy i got the G37x tho. just for everyday convenience, the G37's trunk is a cu-ft bigger, tank is 1.5 gal bigger with similar fuel economy, and has a smaller turning radius. and i agree with 1487 -- the auto in the G37 is nice to have in Boston traffic anyway; then you can open up when the road clears a bit. ;)
styling ... while i think it's very ugly, it certainly gets you noticed (the G37 is EVERYWHERE in New England and blends in too much). the dealer i went to said he has a "kit" that can pain that big snoz into more of a gray matte finish. saw one on the road, bit easier on the eyes but not much. i wonder what body-color would look like ... anyone?
ba27 says:
08:25 AM, 01/26/2010
1487:
RWD isn't a benefit where I live (Midwest) which was one of the points of the article.
A better comparison would be with the G37x, where the numbers would be much closer.
In the end, though, quoting statistics doesn't tell much of anything about the way a car drives. I've driven both a G37x and a TL, and the TL is the more refined vehicle, IMO.
Whether added refinement is a benefit or not is certainly open to debate.
1487 says:
07:56 AM, 01/26/2010
ba27:
I dont think Acura's interiors are any better than Infinitis. Both lack the material quality you find in German luxury cars. I'm not a huge fan of the G37 interior but its no worse than that of the TL in my book. The G37 is one reason for the TL's lack of success. Its RWD, lighter, faster, better looking, more powerful and cheaper when compared to the SH-AWD model that matches its performance. Another thing about the TL- its huge for the amount of space it offers. This car is longer than the CTS or even the 2011 5 series. All that size and its not even that big inside. The 12.6 cu ft trunk on the AWD model is smaller than most comparable RWD sedans.
lexuslvr says:
07:47 AM, 01/26/2010
"However, i do think 8 speeds is too much! (cough toyota cough)"
Well xoquixxoqafxo now it looks like everybody and I mean EVERYBODY is playing catchup. Lexus was the first to offer an 8-speed auto now here comes BMW with their 5, 7 series, audi with their A8 and possible A6, oh and so are Bentley Mulssane and Rolls Royce Ghost. Better yet even Hyundai is going to have an 8-speed auto in the Equus and refreshed Genesis sedan. Mercedes Benz is talking about cutting production of their 7-soeed auto because of cost(Hmmm I wonder what transmission they will use after that.)Bet ya didn't know that huh? Can't talk about Lexus when every body else is following along.
gearhead99 says:
07:23 AM, 01/26/2010
Honda really has plumetted from a great company with leading edge technology and sophisticated styling to a technology laggard (5 speed auto, who are they kidding?) with unquestionably the most offensive styling in the industry. What a shame. Nissan, Subaru and Ford have all surpassed the once mighty Honda in my view. And if you think at least their reputation for quality is intact just ask my wife about the rear brakes in her '09 Accord which had to be replaced with under 20K miles. What a shame.
ba27 says:
07:23 AM, 01/26/2010
As a long-time fan of Acura (we've owned 6 over the years), I have to say that the front end styling of this car is a tragedy, because it stops many potential purchasers from finding out that this is really a nice-driving car. I will never understand how such a polarizing design could have made it to actual production.
I'm currently piloting a TL Tech as a loaner, and it has many strengths, including a refined, sonorous V-6, comfy seating, and a big trunk. It also has its downsides, including somewhat compromised visibility due to the high shoulder-line and squashed greenhouse, some torque-steer and a slightly-flinty ride, even with wimpy 17" tires.
On balance though, it's a more refined vehicle than an Infiniti G37 (thrashy engine, noisy, cheap-ish interior materials), and that would be enough to sway many people, if only the front-end weren't so.....whatever the heck it is!
Acura missed this one by thatmuch....
xoquixxoqafxo says:
07:04 AM, 01/26/2010
Honda's always seem to age well, even the 2nd gen 1999-2003 TL still looks good today and some of those models are already 10 years old. I do agree that i like the look of the 3rd generation TL than this one but this styling is starting to grow on me. I really love it when the dealer paints the grill the same color as the rest of the car. I think Acura should do this from the factory and most people will stop bitching about the styling. I'm really glad that this car is a second faster with the 6MT. 5.6 sec is much better and class competitive, i was really dissappointed with the 5AT 6.6 sec dash as it is actually slower than the previous generation and the 2nd generation TL type S which did it in 6.2 back in 2002. I think i may just have to add the 6MT model to my shopping list in the future. I really think Honda now needs to replace all the Acura 5 speed Autos with the new 6 speed auto from the ZDX, 5 speeds is starting to feel dated in luxury cars as most now have 6, 7, and even 8 speeds. However, i do think 8 speeds is too much! (cough toyota cough)
I really hope Acura brings back the Type S soon with even more power to make this thing run with M3's or at least be as quick as the 335i 4.8 sec dash to 60.
ahsanman99 says:
06:42 AM, 01/26/2010
I personally love the front of the Tl,i think front end is beautiful and grill is awesome and bold.bmw and audi is keep making the same front and back end for last 15 years,they just add new front and back lights and lines.This acura TL has pretty good performance,style,luxury,reliability,resale value for 42k.but wait where is the TYPE-S?
zoomzoomn says:
06:00 AM, 01/26/2010
I still feel...nauseous every time I see this car. What compounds it for me is that I was a huge fan of the TL from way back to the original 2.5 model. The 2nd gen car was really nice and well priced and the 3rd gen added the looks to carry the model to new heights. Then there's gen 4. Probably still drives well (don't know personally, yet), but the price is up and the looks go beyond polarizing! Dealers are trying verious ways of painting the HUGE grill to mask it's cartoonish appearance. With Acura's blessing! To think I used to work at an Acura dealer in the 90's and we begged for more daring styling. Well, they finally listened. Goes back to the old cliche "be careful what you ask for"!
1487 says:
05:32 AM, 01/26/2010
The fact that this car is a second faster than the auto shows how inept HOnda's 5 speed auto really is- many cars today (such as the G37) arent slower with the automatic transmission. That 5 speed is really robbing this car of performance- but its the tranny 95% of TL buyers will be getting.
thammer62 says:
05:22 AM, 01/26/2010
Front grill looks like a bottle opener. For a big bottle.
nicked says:
04:56 AM, 01/26/2010
Great news! You can drive fast so your buddies can't see you driving this UGLY thing.
huyracing says:
02:47 AM, 01/26/2010
Ah, but the Honda of old is gone...
cz75 says:
12:17 AM, 01/26/2010
The Ugly ruins the rest. Hopefully Honda can pull something out for the TL at the MMC. As it is, it remains Batmobile-lite in its appearance.
angry_mushroom says:
11:26 PM, 01/25/2010
@charlesb
Can't disagree too much with you about the styling. My biggest gripe is how long will it remain fresh? Will this car still look good in 10 years? Overall the idea of putting all this nice hardware inside this car makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
charlesb says:
10:39 PM, 01/25/2010
I really don't get all the Internet antipathy that the exterior styling of this car has generated.
To reflect back on how some of the the more "distinctive" Bangle designs for BMW and the toilet seat-like Audi grill caused such a stir back in the day and I just don't find this pointy "power plenum" Acura design language to be particularly off putting. Making the grill and tail piece silver may be a bit too "in your face" for some tastes but, when all is said and done, perhaps, that was point.
Anyway, kudos to whoever at Honda Motors decided to bring the SH-AWD, manual transmission and 300+ hp to market together in one package irrespective of the wrapper.
thaitanium15 says:
10:02 PM, 01/25/2010
Exterior styling aside, I really like this car. The interior is nice and it is pretty well rounded. I just wish it looked as good as the old TL. Also, I don't understand why newer cars have all of that plastic covering the engine bay. I think it looks tacky.